The Warhammer World points value

Shaun

Member
Yikes ... what a number :) ... but surely bats are not the biggest airborne creatures? Ah well i do not know ... but yes truly the elemental forces would be the strongest - i havent had any experience with the Elementals in gaming ... hence my missing them out in my original numbers. Kudos!
 

Fimm McCool

Member
It's the equating physical creature mass to elemental forces which doesn't work for me. Maybe another way to analogise (is that even a word?) would be to look at sacred sites in the known world
Stone Henge is rocks imbued with power through belief, there are sacred trees, holy rivers, incense... are these possible starting points for elementals? Alternatively, if you wanted them to be rarer (I don't imagine all water is perpetually active 'elementals') you could look at natural disasters. Each one the work of an elemental force. How many elementals would it take to erupt Vesuvius or cause a tsunami?
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Fimm McCool":376p7cp4 said:
It's the equating physical creature mass to elemental forces which doesn't work for me. Maybe another way to analogise (is that even a word?) would be to look at sacred sites in the known world
Stone Henge is rocks imbued with power through belief, there are sacred trees, holy rivers, incense... are these possible starting points for elementals? Alternatively, if you wanted them to be rarer (I don't imagine all water is perpetually active 'elementals') you could look at natural disasters. Each one the work of an elemental force. How many elementals would it take to erupt Vesuvius or cause a tsunami?

New age hippy nonsense and primitivist anthropomorphology of natural forces feels less like Warhammer than Renaissance Alchemical pseudo-scientific nonsense does to me. Can't think of any Earth Mysteries references in WFB2E at all, which is surprising seeing the alternative-history bent of the world and Ricks archeology background. Maybe in WFRP? But yeah! go for it!

In my Warhammerland, Elementals have to be summoned, they're not independent entities, so whilst their might be billions of them in posse they (like necromancers and demonologists) would realistically be capped by the number of people able to summon them.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Right then, that's elementals done, so what about Demons?

Like with Elementals and Undead, I htink the number of demons would be dependant on how many wizards were able to summon them.

For the Old World we could use an estimate of the number of witch persecutions during "The Burning Times", being the witch burning craze of early-modern Europe. Rabid Neo-pagan Feminist Wiccans ludicrously claim the figure of witches killed at 9mil. Less rabid historians say around 40,000, over a 50 year period. Who knows? Let’s say that these are most Level 1 Witches, with 20,000 per generation. Then we could assume witches organise themselves in covens of 13 headed by a Demon, which gives us 1538 demons and 18462 Mastery Level One witches. Of course some of those “Demons” might just be Slaneeshi Beastmen pretending to be a demon, so let’s put aside 206 of them as beastcults, giving us 1332 And then some covens are going to be actual demonic cults, and the others just minor chaos tainted weirdos, misguided black metallers and some genuine earth-goddess cultists or what-have-you. So let’s split that into two which gives us 666 demons. Perfect.

Now we have 666 lesser demons (witches only being level 1 can’t summon anything else) which are 32pv. 21312PV
We also have 18462 LVL.1 Wizards (witches) 160pv 2953920
And 206 Beastmen at 10pts each 2060pv
 
If I understood correctly you seem to be equating demonologist with pagans and elementalists with occultists. I would suggest it is the other way round if anything. Alternatively, i would say that all wizards in the old world are some kind of occultists. Someone analogous to a pagan would be an ork shaman?

Problem with using witchburning statistics is that (apart from the tendency of modern feminists to distort statistics as you mentioned), that those witchburnings were likely more to do with magical thinking on the part of the witchhunters than the alleged witches.

But good work on getting 666 lesser daemons. :)
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
It's all about the 666! :twisted:

Definitely looking at Warhammer as Dennis Weatley, Hammer Horror kind of re-envisioning Early Modern Witch Craze. The historical evidence for Witch cults of 13 members is basically none, but If we use pseudo-historical Witch-Cult hypothesis as our fictional framework, rather than looking at the real causes of the phenomenon (which as you say, comes from the persecutors, not the persecuted), but base the numbers on more conservative estimates, I think we have something that feels Warhammerish, witches in isolated cults in the villages and forests, rather than a wide-spread peace-loving continental-wide pagan nature religion.

For the more educated Empire Demonologist, (remembering witches are only level 1) they too draw from the same as the Elementalists and Necromancers -the Renaissance Occultists. John Dee for example, summoned the dead (necromancy), did alchemical works (elementalism), and talked to 'angels' (demons of law - demonology). But I think all of that is basically dependant on the Renaissance University model and the societal structures required to maintain such, then dividing that into the (ahem) Colleges of Magic. Low level witches and their demons are outside and additional to that - but also summoning demons on a more regular (every full moon or every quarter) basis, so possibly a bigger impact on the overall PV of the demons.

Not even started on the Dark Elf / Melnibonian schools of sorcery, which I think are more likely to be dynastic in principle.

Pagans for Orc shamans? Perhaps. Or If we accept the conceit Orcs are fungoid - maybe the % of 'magic' in a 'magic' mushroom? Some data here. :?

I've been trying to find some data on shamanic populations in pre-colombian south american cultures, or zulus, for the Pygmies, but haven't come up with much.
 

Shaun

Member
Is there no other opinions on this subject, i will have a more detailed guesstimate in the near future and i am eager to hear opinions.
 

Grungni

Member
I am Shaun, i got muddled with my password ... my work continues and i would wholeheartedly appreciate some more information ... if anyone has any as at hand. I know it has been said that the numbers of populations vary but i am thinking of time period 2510 on the Imperial Calender and i am aiming for ratios ... eg - 1 dwarf = 5 humans of the empire, 10 Orcs ...

Daemons and Zombies beffudle me ... how many would there be?

If the warhammer world was put into a tabletop context, as i am attempting, how many boats/ships would there be? Ulthuan - Marenburg - Barak Varr ... who has more boats? How many troops can fit on each boat?

Please help me with more information if you can. When i have finished this it shall be astronomical...
 

Juxt

Member
Looking at rates of corpse decomposition could lead to an upper estimate of zombie/skeleton feasibility. A buried corpse (not interred in a tomb, but buried in the ground, either with or without a coffin) will hold together and be recognisable as a corpse for between one and eight years, before it could be described as a skeleton. After that the skeleton will have bone structural integrity for perhaps fifty to eighty years depending on soil acidity, ground movements, animal interference etc. You can fudge these figures higher for tomb interred/mummified/bog preserved or frozen bodies.

So for any population, the maximum amount of zombies possible would be in line with the mortality rate for lets say the last ~4 years, and the maximum number of skeletons ~65 years (the mortality rate for ~70 years minus the corpses that could viably be zombified)

So the questions are- what are the mortality rates for the different species and settlements? Also, does childhood mortality have an impact? And finally, do undead creatures continue to decompose once resurrected? I.e. does a zombie continue to rot and eventually turn into a skeleton, or do they stop decomposing at the point of resurrection?

To take this further, the crude death rate for the real world hovers somewhere between 7 and 10 deaths per 1000 populous per year. We can fudge that higher for a fantasy world with lesser medical care, constant warfare, poorer welfare and arguably shorter life expectancy. The more grim you want your world to be, the higher the crude death rate. I would reasonably cap the viable crude death rate of the entire Warhammer world to 30 per 1000 populous per year, and a similar birth rate to allow a state of constant repopulation.

So for the maximum number of reanimated zombies in the Warhammer world we're looking at approximately 4 years of deaths at 30 deaths per 1000 people, or 12 zombies per 100 living people. Meaning that in each civilisation with a necromancer or resurrection event, you can have between 0-12% of the population figure in zombies. Likewise, reanimated skeletons would be a maximum of 0-195% of the population. A village could very realistically be overrun by and outnumbered by reanimated skeletons, less likely to happen with zombies.

Zombies = 0-12% of the current world population
Skeletons = 0-195% of the current world population.

Lower figures for jungle/rainforested areas, higher figures for desert, icy, peat bogs, religions who entomb or preserve their dead. Norse undead are unlikely if they burn their dead, as are races who eat their dead beastmen? Orcs?
 

Grungni

Member
World population of humans? I estimate that at somewhere around 375 million ... mostly in Cathay and Ind, with only half of these being "Militant"... (50 million total human population within the Empire for an easy example ... with 25 million of those being members of the militaries).

Would people hereabouts think that within the fantasy setting of the warhammer world, about half of the humans would become militant/warrors/knights, etc...? (50% drafted or so?) ...

Orcs eating undead? Probably...

To fathom the world as a whole and its playability is a mighty thought and i appreciate your information and will use it. Thank you.
 

BobbiJay

Member
Grungni":1xef067j said:
Would people hereabouts think that within the fantasy setting of the warhammer world, about half of the humans would become militant/warrors/knights, etc...? (50% drafted or so?) ...

Nowhere near half, I'd say. Besides the rather male-centric cultures of the Empire and Bretonnia largely prohibiting women in the military orders, even down to the militia level, there's still food and administration and prayer and scholars and every other aspect of life to be accounted for. An *extreme* value might be as high as 20% of the population as a fighting-capable force, but I'd lay my hat on it being closer to 10%, really.
 

Grungni

Member
I see, what are your thoughts on High Elves compared to Wood and Dark Elves? Would Dark Elves be the most militant? What ratios would you think reasonable for them? As to WE ... has anybody ever got stats for Treewomen? Are the male to female ratios even(ish)?

Chaos Dwarves? If the average human/adult to child ratio is 5/1 ... how would an "evil" society such as theirs handle rearing? As with the DE ... such a community would surely kill off their own weak and perhaps not be thr best type of parents ... what % of CD and DE would be militant do you think?

Skaven and greenskin societies might be something similair to Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarves, perhaps even the nastier and more militant ... like how a flock of birds kills off their weak. I have guesstimated the ratio for Orc to Goblin to be 1/4 ... what are peoples thoughts?

Beastman would be similair. What social ratios are known? Bestigor, Gor, Ungor ... Minotaur ... harpy?

Ogres to Chaos Ogres? What thoughts on ratios and numbers here?

Lizardmen? Eggs? What exactly are Lizardwomen? I have guesstimated LM total pop to be some 40-50 million ... of these most would be militant but some parents exist ... thoughts on Lizardmen militant % anyone?

Also ... how many Dogs of War are on the world on warhammer fantasy? Anyone?

I appreciate the input guys. Cheers.
 

Grungni

Member
Also i am interested in peoples thoughts on the total number of Swarms ... for example the Forest of Loren is approximately 150,000 kilometres squared ... what total number of creature swarms would fit within? 1,500 or 15,000? Surely a mixture of creature types would suit the wood elves but other setting arent as simple, what swarms might exist in the Chaos Wastes?
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Militancy is an odd one. Even an untrained Villager with Improvised weapons in Warhammer could get into a fight if pushed, and would cost you 5 points. The rest is dependant on how cultures support their standing armies, which I think we discussed before, is about 300 peasants to a knight (plate armour, and horse) as a rule of thumb.

Swarms? Goodness!

Apparently there are 26,000,000 insects living in every square mile of habitable land on Earth, so Athel Loren could support around 13980 insect swarms - or 6491160 PV. And that's not including non-insect swarm types.

Although, similar with demons and elementals the number of swarms that could be actually summoned in battle is capped by how many Level 4 Elementalist Wizards a society can produce who can cast Summon Swarm - 72 maximum CP, spell costs 12CP, so 6 swarms per wizard, per day, assuming they got a good nights sleep. Sorry, no that's wrong, maximum 3 Lvl 4 spell slots, so only 3 swarms per day.
 

Juxt

Member
Treewomen? Tree reproduction is a tricky area: most trees are hermaphrodites, having both male and female parts to their flowers which they keep separate from each other requiring an external factor for pollination- insects, birds etc. Some trees do have a single sex of flower, male or female, but nearly all trees have been documented as being able to switch sex should reproduction require it. Normally an emergency in their population- the last female tree dying so a male takes its place, etc.. (a few current theories posit that different branches on the same tree have the potential to be different sexes. Branch cuttings from different parts of the same tree growing into both male and female specimens)

So if we take this over to the Warhammer world-wide
* nearly all treemen are hermaphrodites.
*perhaps 25% of the total number of treemen in the world have a specific gender.
* perhaps 25% of that 25% are unable to change their gender if required...

Therefore around:
3.5% of all treemen are permanently female.
3.5% of all treemen are permanently male
8% of all treemen are female except in reproductive emergencies.
8% of all treemen are male except for in reproductive emergencies.
75% of all treemen are both sexes at once.
 

Grungni

Member
Zhu Bajie ... casting takes a spellcaster one Magic phase ... i guesstimate the time period of one turn of Warhammer to be some 7 seconds or so ... (is this in fitting with the thoughts of those here?) I had assumed swarms would already exist and be placeable upon the hypothetical table setup of the warhammer word ... other summoned swarms are to be (hypothetically ofcourse) placed upon the tabletop as the game progresses. Phenominal numbers and situations would be reached... but it also depends upon the winds of magic and the allotment of spells - i play dwarf so i have not learned much of warhammer magic. Insect swarms and point costs have varied throughout the Ages, yes? No? I see them for 50pts each in my 4th edition dawi book ... 13980 insect swarms in Loren? Have you checked that math?

At 150,000 km square - i had guesstimated perhaps 5-10 thousand swarms giving an even distribution to each type - spiders, snakes, bats, rats, frogs, insects, scorpions and any other of which i am unaware. How many insects per swarm? On many models wysiwyg limits the numbers. So that be only 1-2 thousand insect swarms in the forest of the elves by my guesstimate.

Juxt ... i appreciate this information greatly ... i shall put it into my writings and eventual typings on this concept - there is 2% missing from your table of percentages but i shall fuddle it into the both sexes allotment. The same again with the Dryads? What % of Dryads are Forest Spirits?

Thank you all kindly.

I am seeking infomation on the creation and distribution of dwarf runes. Are there any dawi buffs hereabouts?
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Grungni":3m1a0yi7 said:
Zhu Bajie ... casting takes a spellcaster one Magic phase ... i guesstimate the time period of one turn of Warhammer to be some 7 seconds or so ... (is this in fitting with the thoughts of those here?) I had assumed swarms would already exist and be placeable upon the hypothetical table setup of the warhammer word ... other summoned swarms are to be (hypothetically ofcourse) placed upon the tabletop as the game progresses. Phenominal numbers and situations would be reached... but it also depends upon the winds of magic and the allotment of spells - i play dwarf so i have not learned much of warhammer magic. Insect swarms and point costs have varied throughout the Ages, yes? No? I see them for 50pts each in my 4th edition dawi book ... 13980 insect swarms in Loren? Have you checked that math?

At 150,000 km square - i had guesstimated perhaps 5-10 thousand swarms giving an even distribution to each type - spiders, snakes, bats, rats, frogs, insects, scorpions and any other of which i am unaware. How many insects per swarm? On many models wysiwyg limits the numbers. So that be only 1-2 thousand insect swarms in the forest of the elves by my guesstimate.

100,000 insects in an insect swarm - remember these are just normal insects, flies, bees, ants, crickets - not giant fantasy insects. Models represent 10,000 insects. Swarms are bases with 10 models on. 342PV per base. 2nd Edition. Spellcasters can cast spells before the battle, so swarms can appear with the rest of the army, although the wizard will have spent her CP, which she would recover at 1 per turn of inactivity, so could summon an additional swarm every 12 turns assuming they don't move or do anything.

Swarms in-potentia, or wild swarms are fine, just take the available numbers for each animal type, but it's whether they are allied to a specific army would depend on having a 4th level wizard to command them, and not be spending their CP on Elementals or other magic.
 

Grungni

Member
Zhu Bajie ... i put daemons at 44,444,444 in total ... 111,111 greater daemons and 1,000,000 lesser daemons for each chaos god. I have read or hordes and swarms and armies of daemons within published whf literature ... white dwarf magazines. I figure they are trapped within the northernmost of the chaos wastes and cannot head south because of a lack of radiance of the winds of magic ... the chaos sorcerers and forces must guide them south wth spells and acts of chaos...

weistmonsters ... your thoughts on Vampires. Are the Von Carsteins the only family in Sylvannia? I have little knowledge on the Undead? If there are five vampire families that means only ten vampires in each if the world has 50 Vampires total. I suggest 10,000 as my mind sits now ... can i meet you in the middle as a group consensus guesstimate for now ... 5025 total? Or is that far too many for you? Do others have opinions here to weigh in? All over Sylvannia, Lahmia, The Dark Lands, Khemri, The Vampire Voast of Lustria ... all those spooky castles in the Empire, Cathay and the Vaults with questionable owners, all about the world ... you truly think only 50 hey? Hmm, well as i typed i have little undead knowledge. Is 5025/5,000 or so too much for you to accept? 1,000 even?

Can we talk castles? How many for each race?
 

Juxt

Member
Castles eh? Japan had approximately 5000 castles at the height of its feudalism, England about the same, France around 6000, Germany a staggering 15000-20000. A couple of thousand Mesoamerican pyramid type structures, perhaps the same for Egypt?

I don't know how this would translate to the fantasy world, but a sensible guess could be one castle per 100 square km. That gives you roughly the same castle density as Japan, France or England at the height of their feudalism periods. Less densely populated areas might have significantly less.
 
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